Darrin Godin: Well, hey everybody. I'm Darrin Godin, host of Talking Hope podcast, and I'm so excited for today because I get to spend some time with Michelle Meyer. Michelle is our associate Chief Nursing Officer at City of Hope, Orange County. She leads the nursing function across the Irvine Academic Research Campus, which includes the Lennar Foundation Cancer Center, and our brand new cancer specialty hospital. Michelle, thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to spend some time chatting with you.
Michelle Meyer: Thank you Darrin, so much for having me. I'm so excited to be part of this. This is just great opportunity and great way to reach out.
Darrin Godin: So Michelle, I think everybody who's ever especially spent time as a inpatient probably has a story they can tell about that nurse that made a difference in their life somehow. So I would like to start with having you take us back a little bit to what drew you to become a nurse. And then specifically what influenced you to get into oncology nursing?
Michelle Meyer: Okay, this is a good one. So I come from a family where my mother was a pediatric oncology nurse. She was that. My father was a fireman. They had both in community service work. I'm going through high school, not really figuring out what I want to do, but not really actively looking to what I want to do. And then I graduated high school. And I was like, let me do my junior college ADM, let me see where I go with this. And then a year in, nursing just drew me to it. I just said, it's a calling, it's a passion. I didn't know what it was and I gravitated toward it. And I went to talk to a counselor and I said, "How do you get into the nursing program? What does this look like?" True story. The counselor said, "You're never going to be a nurse."
And I was like, "Wow, you don't know me from Adam." But okay, but let me figure this out. So interestingly enough, I've continued on. I got my ADM, went back and got my bachelor's, went back and got my master's. And then I went back and got a second masters. And I will tell you, it became very easy for me, and I know that's weird statement, but it came very as this is what something that I was meant to do. And I was very determined to say to myself, my mom's doing pediatrics oncology, I'm going to stick over here with adult. I'm going to stick over here as the trauma ICU junkie. This is where I want to be. This is what I want to do. And in 2007, my mom did pass away, unfortunately.
Darrin Godin: Oh, I'm sorry.
Michelle Meyer: No, it's okay. She's still with me and always will be. She had passed away and the organization I was with had asked me to take on not only the solid organ transplant service line, but they had asked me to take on bone marrow transplant as a service line. And I had gotten very well versed into program management. And then I fell in love with oncology and it was weird, full circle for me. Because I thought, "Nope, this is where my mom was. I'm going to go on this side." But it didn't.
I actually went full circle and fell really in love with oncology, just the spirit of oncology, the spirit of the patients. And just what research can do and who the nurses were. I thought that when I was in the ICU, you were top of your game, and that's where you needed to be. But when I stepped back out and looked at the landscape, oncology nurses are the most amazing nurses I've ever seen. So they have the critical care, they have the passion, they have the disease process progression. And they're just so compassionate people. And I found my calling for sure.
Darrin Godin: Wow, that's exciting. The first part of your story reminds me of a Taylor Swift song. The second part, it probably reminds me of another Taylor Swift song. So can you tell us maybe a story or two about an experience with a patient or families that you've had that have really influenced the way that you practice or deliver care?
Michelle Meyer: Yeah, I could probably tell you a story in everyday way, shape, or form, but there's a few that stick out. Earlier on in my days, I had just finished some training in cardiothoracic and open heart surgery, and it was very important for me to have a connection with the family so that the family felt safe and comfortable with the care that I was providing. And normally in the intensive care units, you don't normally have family that stay. And it was really important for this wife to stay with her husband at all costs.
And you go above and beyond to make those connections and make sure that as an extension of a nurse, an extension of the organization that you work with, that they're part of that process, the family, the nucleus of that family, that they're safe, that they're taken care of, and you also provide education and things on what to look for. They became a volunteer after that. And just have stuck with me ever since and really have been passionate about being that supportive patient advocate is what we would call them. And we have brought them back into the organization to have talks with other family members and some leadership to talk about their role as the patient and on the other side of the fence you should say. So that's my big one that I love.
Darrin Godin: So I hear you saying building a relationship, right? It's more than just about the episode of care that you're dealing with. It's about getting to know who they are and connecting with them and seeing their part and what they bring to the table as well. So talk to me a little bit about what your perspective is on what really makes an excellent oncology nurse.
Michelle Meyer: God, I can go so many places. You need to have a drive. You need to have a passion and an empathy. And you really need to understand, this is probably the hard part with most nurses, and I would say because I'm guilty of this, you need to have that step back in order to take care of yourself while you're taking care of the patient. I think there's a stigma of oncology that is very hard. A lot of people don't unfortunately make that through that journey. And so you get very attached as a clinician when you see them day in and day out. So it's really taking that mind, body and soul in healing them not only clinically, but healing yourself and healing the family and healing that nucleus. And so there's this great dance that happens when you come into the side of oncology. And it never leaves you once you do, and it makes you stronger and it makes you better. And those are the people that I'm looking for who want to make a difference and who wants to enter this oncology arena and be an oncology nurse.
Darrin Godin: So let's stick on that for a minute, because I know that as part of opening the hospital, you are building an entire workforce to staff this hospital, and you're looking for not just clinical excellence, but you're looking for the right people that are going to bring the right spirit. And as you said, spirit, mind, body, all of those things are important. As nurses or potential nurses, perhaps student nurses, are watching this podcast, talk to us about the difference of oncology nursing. What is it that people would experience in this role that they should consider when they're thinking, would this be a good fit for me?
Michelle Meyer: So if I'm to reach those masses, a couple things. So at OCH we have a few different areas and three different floors. So we have our ETC, which is more emergency oncological medicine, it's a little bit different than your normal urgent care and emergency room. So it'd be somebody who is looking at emergency situations related to oncological experience, which is very small subset of normal hospitals that cater to every disease and every disease process, orthopedics, cardiac, you name it. And so it's really looking at that small niche of oncology and blending it well with critical care and emergency medicine. Same with our ICU. We will be opening with an eight bed ICU. And again, it's going to be a lot of the critical care aspects, but not cardiology. It's going to be very much specific to oncology. And so you'll have maybe complications with cellular therapy.
Bone marrow transplant is what we used to call it. It progressing to cellular therapy, giving stem cells to blood cancers and blood disorders related to blood cancers. And then you have your normal surgical wings, which is another area that we're opening in the hospital, but specified to more solid tumors, pancreatic tumors, lung tumors, things that they would surgically removed, but with the added level to chemo. So all those are just the platform of the nursing field of what we would be looking at. So it's really taking those experiences that you would have in your normal curriculum, your normal pathway of how you became a nurse, and adding onto it the niche and the experience of oncology. And when you tie into who I'm looking for, what I'm looking for, it's those people who are looking for the next level in their existing career to really grow that piece, which is a very, I like to call it the unicorn. It's a little bit of a unicorn, it's a little bit of a niche. But it's an exciting environment and an exciting time to elevate that career for them.
Darrin Godin: So it sounds like working with you and your team, maybe we're going to be developing unicorns.
Michelle Meyer: I've tried my best.
Darrin Godin: It's a unicorn incubator.
Michelle Meyer: I've told everybody we are going to be growing unicorns here. This is what I'm passionate about. It's actually a beautiful time because we are going to be growing a lot of unicorns here with all the education that we're doing.
Darrin Godin: So let's boil that down why that really matters for the patient. Why does it matter that City of Hope is putting a hospital on the ground here in Orange County that is 100% focused on treating and curing cancer. Why is that important for the patient and their families?
Michelle Meyer: It is one spot that they can go to. When you go to different organizations, you have that opportunity to be pushed in through the gateway, whether it's imaging, whether it's primary care, whether it's tiny subspecialties, and you're just pushed through that masses to get where you need. When you come to City of Hope, you are focused on that oncology disease, from start to finish, with this amazing group of clinicians, non-clinicians, all the way up to billers, coders, check-in people who understand what you're going through from the disease and have the ability to go education-wise and bring new research in. It's very tailored.
It's very specific. And it's a team behind you that will get you through this, that will get you out the door. And they are dedicated to fighting and curing cancer. And you go through all of these steps with these navigators, these directional people I call them, that bring you in very quickly, start the treatment and care for you through this journey and get you going. And so the uniqueness of that is it's a lot of hospitals don't have that specialty that surround oncology, and that's what makes us very different. And it's driving a lot of people here who have done amazing things throughout the United States in all of their research and everything that they have done in their careers, whether it be providers, non-providers, and they come here because a passion and a drive. And so we have that clinical expertise to really go above and beyond.
Darrin Godin: Wow, it certainly makes a difference for patients. I know City of Hope has done a lot of work around advocacy at the state and the national levels, talking about how cancer care is different. And it's not the same as many other disease programs or diseases that you would be treated inpatient for. And when you're going through a cancer journey, having people who are a hundred percent focused on the specific needs of what you have as a cancer patient certainly makes all the difference for that level of care, the outcomes, and even for the families. I think that's something that City of Hope just really stands out on is the care that we provide to the families that are also going through that cancer journey. They may not be the patient, but they are involved, they are connected to it and they need care as well. And we provide that level of care. Any thoughts on that from what you've seen working at City of Hope, how that's different from maybe other organizations?
Michelle Meyer: It's much different. And I think you put the nail right on the head. Those family members become our family. And that passion and that drive, and you're correct, taking care of those patients and that family from a holistic approach and a clinical approach, that's what City of Hope does best. That's what we really do. And I will say even the research that City of Hope has from the bench to the bed and the new technologies, they're really pushing the envelope into what we can bring to the patient and the family to help really make a difference in fighting these diseases.
Darrin Godin: Wow. It's a special place to work certainly and special place to be a part of. So Michelle, are there other things you'd like to tell us about the nursing function or oncology that if somebody's considering, let's take student nurses specifically. My wife's a nurse as well, and one thing I've talked with her about is when she went through nursing school, in her rotations they didn't do a rotation in oncology. And I can imagine there's many reasons for that, but there was no exposure to that. Oncology nursing is very broad. It's not all inpatient for one thing. There's a lot of outpatient and there's a lot of really helpful good things that you can do, not being an inpatient nurse. So can you talk a little bit about that as well?
Michelle Meyer: Yeah, so you're very correct. I actually was talking to a couple of schools recently because oncology is not something that is focused on. And we started doing a deep dive fairly recently and said, "What could we do differently? "And my favorite statement when I talk to new people is, "Let's blow it up. Let's do something different. Go big." And so we thought about how do we bring oncology to the nursing schools and how to bring forth something different. And so one of the things we're thinking about is making it meaningful for a clinical pathway. For example, if oncology is your passion, but you like that entity of critical care or emergency, maybe it's a rotation that's three steps. Maybe it's our ETC. oncological emergency services followed by my rapid code blue team, which is oncological emergency. As another third rotation, which would be the ICU oncological.
And so really testing the waters to get them the most exposure that you possibly can early on because they want to decide first if oncology is your passion. A lot of people say it is. And sometimes they go, I step into this landscape and it's not really what I want to do, but there's a lot of people who have past experience, loved ones, something else that has brought them forward. But if we can change the curriculum to make it more palatable, more exciting, and get them more exposure opportunities on their pathway of oncology, I think we can make those changes and differences. And so a couple of the schools and I are looking at that specific curriculum to help get more people in.
Darrin Godin: Very cool. Thank you for that, Michelle. As a nursing leader, where do you draw your inspiration from? Is there a certain person or experience you've had?
Michelle Meyer: I would say my mom is always there. But most of it, it's just looking at patients, talking to patients, looking at staff, looking at people who enter the door. We are all aunts, sisters, mothers, whatnot. I'm a clinician, but I always like to look at what people need on the other side and I draw inspiration from whoever I meet. I will say I think my kids also play a very important part of that when I look at the future and what I design. I think my twelve-year-old daughter has told me she also wants to be a nurse. So I'm like, "Oh, okay. I'm doing something right on some level." And I support her on all that. So I think for me, every time I meet people, it's an opportunity to show things, showcase things, and bring inspiration to myself because that's our audience. That's who we're targeting to make things different, make things better. And so I'm always looking at those areas of opportunity where we can make those change and those meeting [inaudible 00:18:15].
Darrin Godin: You mentioned your daughter. I have two boys, 12 and 8, and I tell them they can do whatever they want. They can be whoever they want to be. They can get whatever job they want to get, but they have to get a nursing degree first. I don't think [inaudible 00:18:28] listen to me, but I see such the importance of nursing and I hope that maybe that little seed will drop in there, but I'm not quite sure. But I know we could always use more male nurses as well in the industry.
Michelle Meyer: Absolutely.
Darrin Godin: So what is your vision for the future for nursing? Where do you see as the next thing on the horizon for, let's stick with oncology nursing, are you seeing anything coming in the future that you're like, "This is going to make a difference?"
Michelle Meyer: I don't know specifically oncology, if I see anything like that. I would say keeping in the landscape and the forefront of the research that's coming down. AIs plays a big part on things. How testing is being done, how we get results, things done. There are so many new oncology therapies that are there and City of Hope does such an amazing job with that. So I think it's being really on the forefront of the future of that. And I think if you can partner that with the AI technology that's coming out and just technology in itself, virtual nursing, the new platforms.
And I always have this balance, because on some level you want to have the platforms and the technology that helps you. But you don't want to go so far away from the patient to provide that amazing connection that you have and that level of confidence. And I always say, don't go too far to the right and don't go too far to the left. And so it's interesting as we start into this world of technology, I always pull the nurses back just a little bit and I tell them, "Let's go old school just a little bit." Because I want to make sure we have that balance. You don't want to lose the connection that you have with the patients for sure.
Darrin Godin: Yeah, human first, right?
Michelle Meyer: Always human first.
Darrin Godin: Aided by the technology, aided by the advances in technology or AI or whatever might come along. But at our core, we are human beings that need human being interaction and understanding and value.
Michelle Meyer: We do so much. And even with Epic and all the electronic medical records, I think I juggle a lot going, "oh, we've gotten so far this way." I even want to pull back from that. So we have again, that more connection to the patient.
Darrin Godin: We could go so many directions with this conversation, Michelle.
Michelle Meyer: We can.
Darrin Godin: I know we don't have all day, but it makes me think of something that many people may not even know that we do, but that we teach our staff this idea of a hope experience. And we like to use the word hope because we're City of Hope. But one important aspect of that is exactly that. Remembering that the person in front of you is a human being and seeing them as that. And any of the work that we do with each other, whether it's with a patient or our colleagues, keeping that first and foremost. And again, I think that's another hallmark of who we are as City of Hope.
Michelle Meyer: It is. It absolutely is.
Darrin Godin: So we've been talking a lot about nursing. We've been talking a lot about drawing nurses in, what might draw them in. And I mentioned earlier that the hospital's coming online. So we are indeed hiring. We're hiring obviously for the hospital. We're also hiring across our outpatient facilities and so forth. So I want to just ask you to take a minute to maybe just give a little pitch. If someone's out there looking for a new role, or looking for a new opportunity on the fence about why they would leave maybe whatever they're doing and be drawn over here to City of Hope, what would you say to a potential candidate?
Michelle Meyer: I would say put your application in and have an opportunity to talk to our amazing leaders. We are different. We are spending a lot of time working with all of our staff, our voice, your voice, how we talk with you, how we bring you in, how you stay connected, how we just kindness for everybody. Recognize work-life balance, bringing you into part of the family and really have that passion and drive to try something new. Just apply. Because I think you'll be very excited to hear when you talk to just several of the people who are just interviewing these amazing people, we're looking for innovative people, people that want to try something new who are passionate and who are driven. We welcome you to the family of City of Hope in Orange County. And we want you to be part of this team. And we want you to be excited. And we want you here.
Darrin Godin: There you go. Apply. So we asked this question of every person that's on the podcast, every guest. And I'd like to hear what you have to say about this. So what does hope or the concept of hope mean to you, Michelle?
Michelle Meyer: I have to tell you a story on this one there. Okay, so my oldest daughter's 12, her middle name is Hope. No joke. My second daughter's middle name is Faith. I chose Hope, because I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Greek mythology, and it's said different ways, but my favorite one is in the midst of chaos, in the midst of darkness. And there was the box. And you open up the box and the world turns black, and there was one piece of paper in the box out of all of this. And it was hope.
When you take that word hope, and for your loved ones or I'm dealing with cancer, your world sometimes feels very dark. It feels very closed in. And I think that word hope has such more meaning than anything else in this world. And that's what City of Hope represents, the hope that we can help you. We will get you there. We'll be part of you with your journey. Some days we will carry you. Some days we'll be behind you. Others days we're in front of you. But we are that hope. And that's the part that I love.
Darrin Godin: Well said. Well said. Thank you so much for that. Michelle. Thank you for taking the time today. I know you're very busy. And I know I've said this to you personally, but I really enjoy having you on the team. I'm so glad you're in the role that you are. I think you're perfectly placed for this time and the right time as the time such as now. And I'm just really excited about the future and to see what you do with the entire program here at City of Hope and just building a team that's really going to make a difference, I think, for generations to come. So thank you for spending your time with us today.
Michelle Meyer: Thank you, Darrin. Appreciate. My pleasure. Love being on this.
Darrin Godin: Well, as you all know, City of Hope is a great place that we've been talking about today, and we'd love for you to consider if you're looking for a new role. If you would like to check us out, we encourage you to visit cityofhopejobs.org to learn more information. Or if you or a loved one are in need of our services and need more information about City of Hope, visit us at cityofhope.org/oc or call us at (877) 541-4673. That's (877) 541-4673. For all of us at City of Hope and Talking Hope, we thank you so much for being with us today, and we look forward to seeing you on our next episode. Have a great day.